ORGANO GOLD COFFEE MILLIONAIRES IN KENYA: Re: Fashishti ya Wagallah (It is criminal to deny that it was genocide)

Dr Abdi
First let me cogratulate you for your composure. I think you are a
type of person we can debate with. yes soberness. I am sure as a Doc
you understand how philosophy came a bout. Reasoning and asking
questions. That is what I am trying to do not just following euphoria
because many a times the media plays the game. and we get sucked in. I
believe we can learn alot from you. Dont shy a way and dont be angry
because I prod realy hard and feel free to do the same to me. if you
find me getting angry, feel free to point it out. Sory for the pain
you went through but dont also just condemn that I am young. actually
I could be older than you. So I know all a bout Shifta, its
aftermarths, the military escorts etc. also have had experiences of
the temperaments of the Nestern communites bacause i grew up with them
and played ball with them. fighting line was saw thin that enjoyig
soccer was difficult. Neighbors, including children had to be so so
careful not to cross lines else dagers would be brought out even in
the most petty things. if you told me that the people in Nestern have
lived under harsh conditions therefore survival has taught them this,
I would understand to some extend but then what about the Turkana,
the kambas, the pokots. When we were in school they never treated me
the same. we argued and laughed about it. I was free to pick even on
their tribes and them on mine and we went and ate together and bought
each other bread. to be honest it is not the same with my friends from
NEstern. if I say otherwise i will be lieing. I am yet to find a true
friend. The shifta believed in greater somali. Kenya was not their
home. I am getting even this connortations in the 95 page attachement
which was posted earlier. What I know is that we found ourselves, by
the Berlin treaty, together else the westeners should be in Uganda,
the Taitas with the Chagas, the Mombasarians with Zanzibaries, the
turkanas with the toposa, the rendile and borana with the Oromo etc.
leaving only the Kikuyu, kalenjin, meru embus and kambas as kenyans. I
agree with you not all Kikuyus should be killed because of a few bad
ones but also not one kikuyu should kill all the government workers
because they cartailed his stealing. But when one a mong them kills
and the rest dont condemn or reveal them more still protect them and
more and more people are killed , NYS are killed, and the police are
killed etc what is the government letf to do. Even before God when you
do not condemn evil you are an accomplice in the sin and therefore
also be ready to partake in the consequences. That is why I brought in
the mount Elgon parallel so that the young people in this forum can
see from all angles. it is more recent for them to see the efforts
made by the governemnet in terms of AP's, police, GSU etc before the
army was let out of the cage. There are tales of torture there too but
you see Matakwei's wife condeming the evil and many other indigeneous
people there. this releases forgiveness for collective sin of the
community, and only remains for individual families who refuse to,
from heaven which is more important than court cases. ie fear God not
man. But if the rest of us were to sincerely think through, the mount
Elgon faction had some point though may have gone about it wrongly. In
terms of their precolonial land, the rest of us need to ask them for
forgiveness and they need to forgive because now the other tribes who
settled in their land, post colonial, do not know another home. I
would wish we have a debate on Mt Elgon too. for example if they came
up and said this kibaki government has done hinious acts on us and our
women and children would they be justified?. maybe!. It would be a
good question to ask the young people in this forum. Dkatari an
alternative thinking makes us see things clearly and seek better
truths and solutions on how to live together ama?.

It is true when there is a riot the GSU do bad things. The army even
worse. but if you get my earlier line of thought , No1. what provoked
the whole thing. small or big. let us face this hard truth not go
round it. No2. I am yet to see any leader from Nestern Condemn murders
of people that have left children fatherless. See what even happened
in the census. Somone there should have at least said surely this
figures are quetionable. Even Billow kerrow that I respected so so
much as an upright and cool guy let me down. I was dissapointed. What
I am relaying here is to make the people of NEstern know that we are
also crying for the pain they have caused us. They also need to say
brothers we are sorry for the pain our brothers have caused your
children and widows. We need to face these truths also and not just
wish them away. Have you noticed most people have kept from commenting
on this topic?. can you guess why? . My guess is that many were born
in late 80's and therefore have no idea of the history of 60's, 70's
and 80's . They have decided to learn from our debate first. They are
not sure. I have been in NEstern escorted byheavy atilary security
convoy so I know what I am talking about.

In your opinion Dkatari was it justified for the man in the KWS case
to kill all the civil servants in Garissa whether somalis or otherwise
for the stealing he had committed?. it seems to me he believed he had
the right to porch without being stopped. By the way I am not sure
wether we are talking of the same case here. NEstern has so many
stories of creasily murders whether by militia or by government.
Allover the country whether they are the KWS rangers, forest rangers,
AP's, police, GSU and prison wadens are known to tortue their
arestees. the degree of torture depending on the reaction of the
arestee. for example if you abuse back at them when they slap you,
then be sure you will get "kichapo cha umbwa". if you plead for mercy
then they may just pull, push squeeze and take you to remand and court
process corruption not withstanding. I have been in their hands too
anumber of times, innocently though, and just gave them the respect
they deserved and was let go without bribe. How comes in NEstern it
was always excess. How comes the excesses in the other regions are not
looked at so (becaue they have happened
). could it be that in other regions people condemn evil even if it is
done by their mothers?. Get me right i do not approve torture. I just
want to think loud to be fair and not just justify myself.

I will still go back to my suggestion of solution. We repent (admit
that we are also wrong) and forgive. The army may even be taken to the
Hague and convicted and sentenced which i agree to if they are found
to be the guilt party by human standards. But if God standards are not
met my dear friend trouble will still come in many other ways eg
plagues,etc. Let me assume Gods position for a while. If men with guns
put on buibui and join women and children in demonstration and police
or army come out to control the riot and then the men shoot at the
police and kill some of them. and then the police/army shoot back and
children and women die with some of the gunmen. and the media takes
photos of women and children killled including the gunmen in buibui
who are then burried quickly in line with religious rites, the world
will condemn the army bitterly for killing women and children. they
may be taken to court and convicted and hunged. the case will be
closed in the eyes of men but not the eyes of God. Before God, the
army men convicted were innocent becasue they were executing their job
unless they raped. Bofore me, as God, the main culprit are the gunnmen
and i will pursue them to the 3rd and 4th generation. thus tregedy
will befall their descendants to pay for the innocent blodd. each time
the children and widows of the police or army men who were first
killed cry I will take note more than the children of the people who
went to riot. But if our hearts in NEstern are not reconciled with the
maker then there will still be hurts. If the blood of the of the civil
servants teachers, policemen, NYS workers, missioneries are not atoned
for, the cries of the ophans and widows will still reach the maker and
the curse is on upto the fourth generation. That i know. Life is not
just a bout science. It is also spiritual and it is truely so. There
is a God who hears the cries. I am saying this because I truly would
like to see a truly prosperous NEstern truly and truly so. For the
army men who raped, that is evil and a none godly principle and need
to repent too. For their other actions I cannot comment because the
army is the sword of the nation and does not leave the Scabbard except
to draw blood. In this kind of reasonning am I wrong daktari?
Antony

On 10/19/10, Dabar Maalim <dmaalim@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear Salah, Antony, Steph, and others.
> Let me come to your game of chance you are playing here. To me this is what
> I think:
> (i) Both Salah and Antony are on the wrong side. And both you are using the
> wrong parameters for trying to defend your points.
> First, Antony its wrong to generalize an entire 3rd largest province of
> Kenya (tho now there are no provinces) people as impatient, inhuman and
> merciless. Your sentiments are actually adding insults to injuries. Am a
> victim of both 1980 Garissa and 1984 Wagalla masacres and I feel both you
> were either absent (for Antony and too young for the orphan- Salah). For
> Wagalla, I was sent for detention (only avoided by God's mercy) for treating
> the paraffin splashed and burnt victims of Wagalla.
> For Garissa, the story you are quotating from your freind (Steph) is half
> baked, because the guy who killed the civil servants was cheated by a group
> of Govt Officers who wer trading with illigally with elephant tusts, leopard
> skins etc and they tortured him and castrated him in Garissa KWS camp. He
> planned to kill civil servants both Somalis and non-somalis for his people
> targeted any GK vehicle they saw on sight. The stories are actually too
> painful for me to tell for what the innocent people of garissa underwent.
> Its very unfair to kill all kikuyus because a kikuyu thief killed a trader.
> Thi is what the Kenya Govt did to for over 30yrs. I have washed the blood of
> my sisters who were raped from a classroom. We witnessed the hair of girls
> plaited together by the soldiers and setting fire on the innocent girls
> after being raped. by who? by the same Governt you want to give you a second
> account. So these a painful instances that need careful and honest
> approach not the type you and Salah are trying to listen to.
> (ii) For my friend salah, I agree with Antony, don't talk about his mouth,
> whether small or big. Drive the point home as you discuss.
>
> Regarding the atttrocities of Kenyan security men, even Antony is awere what
> they do and how they do. But please discuss things soberly (for Salah) and
> honesty and justly (for Antony).
> Finally, may I ask the moderator, to me mindful of some of the sentiments
> raised, for they hurt more than help.
>
> Warm regards,
>
>
>
> Dr. Dabar Abdi Maalim
> P.O.Box 5561
> Asmara, Eritrea
> Tel: +291 1714 7678
> Email: dmaalim@yahoo.com
> Or maalima@er.afro.who.int
>
>
>
> --- On Mon, 10/18/10, ANTONY MBAYAKI <antombeks@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: ANTONY MBAYAKI <antombeks@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Fashishti ya Wagallah (It is criminal to deny that it was
> genocide)
> To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com
> Date: Monday, October 18, 2010, 4:54 PM
>
>
> Sala
> I guess your use of dear is ironical. What buffles me is whay it is
> always difficult to hold an intellectaul debate with people from
> Nesrtern without being called names eg you are saying I am openning my
> big mouth. asign of temper against any alternative thought. Well as
> for me since i was brought up to be patient and slow to anger and to
> think repentance and forgiveneness etc I will not a buse you back. God
> bless you my friend. I can feel your pain but i also fel the pain of
> those who have been widowed and opharned in Nestern. Or is it that
> they were Kafiris so their death is like that of animals since you are
> a sheikh?.
> I am only trying to think out of the box. thus who lit this fire and
> why that has caused so much pain and anguish b4 we linch the army?.
>
> In my opinion, it seems when poeple in Nestern kill and maim innocent
> people who are "Nywele Ngumu", it is Ok. when people from Nestern die,
> then humans have died. let us face it some innocent lives were lost in
> that area in the hands of someone. It was basically a dagerous area
> even for the police just like mount elgon had become.
>
> As for the figure, we know that both governments and civil societies
> tilt figures in a direction to win international and public sympathy
> on their side. I am trying to go through the document attached earlier
> and i still have a lot of questions. I wish genuine investigations
> would take place. That is why I mentioned earlier I would want to hear
> from the army's side first b4 drawing conclusions. Convince me to
> move from my enquistive mind to support your position. For me I still
> insist, repentance and forgiveness is the way to go. NEsteners have to
> learn things like mercy, patience, tolerance, forgiveness etc. One day
> you will thank me for being bold enough to tell the NEsteners the
> healing truth that people fear telling them. A friend tells you real
> truth not pleasing lies. over to you too Sala but breath in b4
> answering because tempers dont help in a debate. it only revelas
> intimidation as a defence of barreness of ideas in achallenge.
> Antony
>
>
> On 10/17/10, Salah Sheikh <salah.sheikh@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Dear Antony Mbayaki,
>> What is it that you are trying to convince the world? That if one criminal
>> commits a crime, hundreds should be killed? What is it that you are
>> connecting?
>> How are the 3000 people killed at Wagalla related to the stories you are
>> narrating here? What specific crimes had those men committed? where were
>> the
>> courts? The police when all these crimes were taking place?
>> In the the period between 1980-1998, more than 7000 Kenya Somalis were
>> killed in
>> the hands of Kenyan security forces. There were no Shiftas then, the Shita
>> war
>> ended 23 years earlier, why was the security forces hunting innocent
>> people?
>> For
>> your information of the men who were killed at Wagalla 57 were serving
>> civil
>> servants, so what were they killed for?
>> You have absolutely no right to cast aspersions on innocent people
>> massacred
>> by
>> a government led by a rogue dictator. Denying the genocide at Wagalla is
>> criminal, in fact those who deny it should face jail term.
>> You are writing all these nonsense because they did not kill your family.
>> When
>> it happens to you is the time you will know how it feels. I wish it
>> happens
>> to
>> you so that you don't open your big mouth dancing on the grave of victims
>> of
>> a
>> brutal system that killed them for no other reason that the structure of
>> their
>> hair.
>> Over to you.
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: ANTONY MBAYAKI <antombeks@gmail.com>
>> To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com
>> Sent: Sun, October 17, 2010 12:09:32 AM
>> Subject: Re: Fashishti ya Wagallah
>>
>>
>> Steve
>> thanks for being open minded. I am sure if you are old enough then you
>> remember
>> the day a militia opened fire on innoccent civil servants in their club in
>> Garissa. People who had gone to serve them. Sisters, brothers, mothers
>> fathers
>> of fellow citizens. What stories does KTN have for the oprhans and widows
>> and
>> widowers?. NYS squads working in NEstern were wiped out teachers, etc.
>> Ask
>> any
>> policeman in Wajir today, a recent story is that on the border with Somali
>> is a
>> distant police post. from nowhere the elshabab just went there and opned
>> gunfire
>> on the mabati structures. luckily our trained policemen keep outdoors more
>> often
>> in this region. After the shooting they treked many kilometers to Wajir
>> for
>> reiforcement and help . actually one of them died. If this happens more
>> often
>> dont you think the governement would be justified to send in the army to
>> deal
>> witrh alshabaab?. thereafter fast forward 20yrs later, KTN type story will
>> be
>> serialised in the eyes of the children, widow, brothers and sisters,
>> father
>> and
>> mother uncles, aunties friends neigbours etc(if will still be alife). of
>> that
>> policeman who died. Please KTN should not be incensitive. This is a waitty
>> matter. They should think dual/on their feet before airing this kind of
>> programmes
>>
>> My solution to NEstern and Wagalla is to state the truth square if we want
>> to
>> help them. people in NEstern have shed so much innocent blood. they have
>> left
>> many wounds grieve and sadness. do you think God is happy. My solution is
>> that
>> they call their elders and call a meeting with some of the relatives and
>> descendants of the oprhans and plead for forgiveness. else life will
>> always
>> be
>> cheap in that community. God will revenge these oprhans. Gods revenge for
>> murder
>> is worse than what the army did. It is long and cruel. It can wipe out
>> whole
>> tribes. it does not matter which country you run to. you cant predict the
>> method
>> of revenge. Look at how the clans there fight each other to death. They
>> are
>> yet
>> to see. The Somali Christians understand these things and they better
>> start
>> pleading to God on behalf of the rest not the KTN way. let them learn from
>> the
>> Fiji example. actually there is a video on this and can be found in Kenya
>> "
>> Transformation Fiji" . the KTN way only increases hate and unforgivenesss.
>> The
>> army may have been just one of the ways God uses. The children of israel
>> were
>> handed over to cruel armies when they sinned till they repented.
>> .offcourse
>> I
>> dont approve of the raping by the army but we all know the army is like
>> aGerman
>> shephard locked up and that is why it is always kept from civilian life.
>> let
>> KTN
>> also go to Mount Elgon.
>>
>> I insist the message should be forgiveness not KTNs way. Dont get me wrong
>> I
>> still love watching KTN and even Jicho pevu though.It is just that on
>> this
>> I
>> think they missed it. I feel for the Wagalla people but it is only the
>> truth
>> that sets us free not sympathy.
>> Antony
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 9:14 AM, steph AM <stepham4@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Anthony,
>>>
>>>I dont think the army and the government were made up of only mad
>>> people.How can
>>>the human rights groups and the media tell as a story of a conflict from
>>> one
>>>side and expect us to believe?What was so special with torturing and
>>> killing
>>>these people?Something is being hidden here.We need at least a glimpse of
>>> what
>>>provoked the government.There are many reasons why Kenya is stable and
>>> such
>>>
>>>actions could be some of them.Sometimes it is necessary to lose a few
>>> characters
>>>and save the whole country from eternal chaos.Think about Somalia and
>>> guess
>>> how
>>>it might have started roting.
>>>
>>>
>>>AM.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 11:57 PM, ANTONY MBAYAKI <antombeks@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>Robert
>>>>Let me take you through a short history walk. Please be slow to pass
>>>> judgement.
>>>
>>>>I am just wondering could the army just do this without provocation. I
>>>> think to
>>>>be sober we need to hear the armies side of the story. those of us who
>>>> are
>>>> old
>>>>enough know how NEstern was like those days. If you had a brother in the
>>>> army or
>>>>police then and he was send to NEstern, you started planning burial
>>>> giound. The
>>>>so called Nywele ngumu's died. The sad thing is that Somali security
>>>> forces ie
>>>>police, prisons etc conspired against their colleagues to be ambushed. A
>>>> story
>>>>is told of one day when the somali militia were being outwitted in an
>>>> ambused
>>>>their ammunition was running out, a somali policeman threw his gun to
>>>> them.
>>>>There are many nywele ngumus who died in NEstern, so many, so many. they
>>>> were
>>>>brothers and fathers too. No one talks a bout this. is it that only the
>>>> Somalis
>>>>in this new Constutiion are people?.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Remember one of their own was in commnad of the army. the guy who quashed
>>>> the
>>>>82' coup. His profile reads that he is a professional soldier full stop.
>>>> It is
>>>>said he was such a soldier that he could kill his own village if the
>>>> crossed
>>>>against Kenya. so what realy happend that the army was send?. to me I am
>>>> not in
>>>>agreement with the rape and killings but who's sons and daughters and
>>>> fathers
>>>>were killed by the Wagallas b4 the military was provoked that much?.
>>>> Remember
>>>>those days, the kenyan military was considered one of the most
>>>> disciplinRd
>>>> on
>>>>the continent. Look at even during the 2007/2008 PEV they still kept
>>>> their
>>>> cool
>>>>and professionalism. KTN needs to move to mount Elgon and see what the
>>>> opposing
>>>>sides say a bout the army too. The supporters of SLDF say baaaad!!. The
>>>> wananchi
>>>>say goood!. I choose to hear from the army's side before i pass
>>>> judgement.
>>>>
>>>>doesnt the good book say when
>>>>
>>>>you hear the 1st person to speak you may think he was wronged till you
>>>> get
>>>> to
>>>>hear the other person and discover the lies?.
>>>>Antony
>>>>
>>>>On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 2:52 PM, omondi omondi
>>>> <omondiomondi4no@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Lee,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Achana naye,we know his area of specialty with one from veveland.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Omondi Omondi.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 9:42 AM, Lee Makwiny <amosogal@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>These are people who should be pursued. Ndunya is silent on this and
>>>>> will
>>>>> wait
>>>>>for another Raila's sisters, or Odinga's grandchild to shout from the
>>>>> rooftop!
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Salah Sheikh <salah.sheikh@yahoo.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Robert,
>>>>>>>Read "Blood on the Runway: The Wagalla Massacre of 1984". You will
>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>> more of
>>>>>>>what happened and who was responsible.
>>>>>>>Salah
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Francis A Aywa <angila.aywa@pactke.org>
>>>>>>>To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com; bidiiafricaint
>>>>>>> <bidiiafricaINT@googlegroups.com>;
>>>>>>>nyciv@googlegroups.com
>>>>>>>Sent: Tue, October 12, 2010 7:37:12 PM
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: Fashishti ya Wagallah
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Nkt!
>>>>>>>Katiba mpya, Kenya mpya
>> ________________________________
>>
>>>>>>>From: Robert Alai <alai.robert@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>Sender: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com
>>>>>>>Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 19:22:55 +0300
>>>>>>>To: ><mlalahoi@googlegroups.com>;
>>>>>>>bidiiafricaint<bidiiafricaINT@googlegroups.com>;
>>>>>>> <nyciv@googlegroups.com>
>>>>>>>ReplyTo: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com
>>>>>>>Subject: Fashishti ya Wagallah
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Guys
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I have just watched Moha on Jicho Pevu and I am so moved.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Am so moved and I have not seen so much horror in peacetime. Why oh
>>>>>>> why. Why
>>>>>>>kill your own citizen? Then you hear that people loose evidence
>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>breakins. When you loose evidence you really kill the victims twice
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Alai
>>>>>>>Robert Alai
>>>>>>>Blogger
>>>>>>>tech@techmtaa.com
>>>>>>>TECH BLOG: www.techmtaa.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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