Jectone,
You shock me with your ignorance about how a dictatorship works.
Those who were jailed in the 70s, 80s and the 90s were jailed "legally", for political reasons, under the then existing constitution as faulty as that constitution was.
We have got to block those faulty constitutional avenues so no dictator will use them in future. They will be forced to defy democratic ideals instead and be held up to the light of justice.
Yes, democracy depends on the people implementing the constitutional provisions. We can have the best constitution in the world but if we don't have the right people implementing it, we'll be back to square one. But the first step which this PC has taken is to block their use of the courts to advance their political interests with the help of a faulty constitution.
I advise that we say YES and we move on from there. At least we'll be able to save the integrity of the 2012 elections.
Courage,
Maurice, CPE etc.
Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network
From: Jectone Ndunya <jacknyaiga@yahoo.com>
Sender: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 02:36:34 -0700 (PDT)
To: <mlalahoi@googlegroups.com>
ReplyTo: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: my concerns
Everyone,
Those fronting and chanting green slogans with all promises that only need the ocean waters as the ink enough to write them does not know the following;
That this Country Kenya, does not need a Constitution to be able to respect human rights but it does need the people to first respect themselves and then extend it to others.
That this Country Kenya does not need a Constitution to be able to distribute National resources equitably but it does need well committed individuals to the course of human life and her natural being.
That this Country Kenya does not need a Constitution to be able to create Jobs and provide basic human needs but we does need leadership and institutions that understand what basic human needs are and to create environment viable for achievement of these Unilateral basic human requirements.
That this Country Kenya does not need a constitution to provide for this and that, my understanding about a Constitution is that it sets out basic principles and operating standards for a country to ground itself as she sets out to meet the fundamental and critical needs for her citizens.
That this proposed Constitution will not bring with it manna from heaven but if well understood by her citizens will enable them operate in a environment where they fully enjoy the fruits of being a citizen.
My people all has been said about the good and bad this document will bring but the benefits or lack of it will all depend on how well the people will apply the laws.
My Advice.
Jex
--- On Thu, 7/29/10, killion ooko nyamwanga <killionooko@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
From: killion ooko nyamwanga <killionooko@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: my concerns
To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com
Date: Thursday, July 29, 2010, 1:08 PM
Dear Wamuyu
Your arguements and clarifications on the proposed constitution is purely based on true understanding of the draft. You are the guys whom we need to enlighten other Kenyans who are embroiled in parochial chauvinism about the draft and more particularly we christians we are so concerns with little claims than the bigger picture of the proposed draft. I totally agree with you ndugu.
This is the way to go brother and please keep it up. For us who are out of the country, I feel happy for you brother and I know your intelligent explanation will not go to the dust it will bear green fruits on 4th August 2010. Kudos Wamuyu
Jakasrime Kosoko
N'Djamena
Chad
From: Wamuyu Gatheru <wamuyulearn@yahoo.co.uk>
To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com; kikuyusforchange@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 29 July, 2010 12:22:35
Subject: Re: my concerns
Anne, I think the proposed Constitution, on any issue of particular interest to any Kenyan, can provoke concern. My issue for example is Executive/Presidential control. I note for example that although freedom of information is provided for as a right, no legislation has been prescribed. As I mentioned earlier, the President will still have a free hand with the police. However, when I step back and look at the broad thrust of the document particularly on the separation of powers in the arms of government (and the independent Commissions), I conclude that overall the President will have to be a lot more accountable than he is today. So I prefer not to look over, around, under, within, between and behind clauses to confirm my fears of dictatorship. On homosexual relationships I think the Committee of Experts was clear that they cannot legislate matters where there is wide disagreement in Kenyan society. Although the homosexual community and rights advocates may have tried and will try in the future to legalise gay marriages, the Committee unequivocally took the position of the majority. However, the Committee is clear that no one should be discriminated against or persecuted for any reason - including homosexuality. Homosexuals are human beings too and we do not want to see them bloodied by extremists and other fundamentalist people. Please note, as with abortion, no society can legislate against these things. When one has an abortion or keeps a same sex partner, it does not infringe on the rights of anyone else. So the choice is a private matter that laws for or against can do little to change. As a Christian, I will be happy to see more more faith, prayer and love and less activism in our Christian community. Those are the primary tools for us in creating the societies we seek. The law however important can never be our primary tool. We should also be equally outraged by extreme poverty, inequality and corruption that the proposed Constitution is trying to eliminate - I find that we Christians are overly interested in sexual sins more than other sins. regards, Wamuyu
From: Anne Mbugua <anmbugua@musyimilaw.com>
To: kikuyusforchange@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, 28 July, 2010 18:55:32
Subject: my concerns
I have been very burdened by the gay rights debate. Can somebody help? Here are my observations. Article 45 – The Family - Kenyans had asked during the constitution-making process that there is a clear prohibition of same sex marriages, as a way to defend our families.
- Both the Bomas and Wako drafts therefore had a clear provision stating, "A PERSON SHALL NOT MARRY ANOTHER PERSON OF THE SAME SEX." Why was this lost in the Harmonization process?
- PCK states in Article 45 (2) that; "every person has the right to marry a person of the opposite sex, based on the free consent of the parties." It just declares a right but does not bar other unions. So it is true that gays as of today cannot marry. But can they have unions awaiting declaration of rights by the court or embracement of the same through treaties and conventions?
- There is also no definition of MARRIAGE.
- Article 19 (3) states that the rights and fundamental freedoms in the bill of rights do not exclude other rights and freedoms not in the bill of rights but recognized or conferred by law except to the extent that they are inconsistent with this chapter. That means we can declare or acknowledge other RIGHTS.
§ Would sexual minorities rights be inconsistent? In my view NO! Article 27 forbids discrimination on ANY GROUND. So is sexual orientation! Sub article 5 states that a person shall not discriminate on the grounds specified or contemplated in clause (4). The current constitution states all the ground. PCK has included all grounds! This is a very fundamental departure. I agree that nobody should be discriminated on any ground. I question is, do Kenyans understand that this will capture all grounds including sexual orientation? If they did and still voted for it, that is ok. § In article 20 the courts have been empowered to develop the law to the extent that it does not give effects to a right or fundamental freedom. Same article states that in interpreting the Bill of Rights, a court or tribunal or other authority shall promote the values that underlie an open and democratic society… Do Kenyans know what is an open society? - Article 56 mandates the states to put in place affirmative action programs to ensure that minorities and marginalized groups develop their cultural values, language and PRACTICES. Minority groups are not defined. However, marginalized group is defined in article 260 page 171 to mean a group of people who, because of laws and practices before, on, or after the effective date, were or are disadvantaged by discrimination on one or more of the grounds in Article 27(4) . Article 27 (4) forbids discrimination of a person on Any Ground including those stated and those contemplated. The ones stated in this article are not all inclusive. Among the relief the court can give in Article 23 is DECLARATION OF RIGHTS.
- The manner, in which Article 45 has been worded, opens a loophole through which the Courts could interpret the constitution in light of international practice, and recognize sexual minority's rights. Note that article 27 (1) states that EVERY PERSON IS EQUAL BEFORE THE LAW AND HAS THE RIGHT TO EQUAL PROTECTION AND EQUAL BENEFIT BEFORE THE LAW. Exact clause used in South African case of MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS VS FOURIE through which the gays right to marry was pronounced.
How about international treaties and conventions. Are there some that as of today recognize the gay rights? Have you read the Hague Marriage Convention? What treaties will be there after august 2010? How about in 2025? 2040 etc. Would we want all those future ones ratified without representation to become part of the law of Kenya UNDER THIS CONSTITIUTION? The family clause falls under the protected clauses. If amended is to be done, it must go through a referendum. Note that amendments under article 257 can only be after 2012 when counties are constituted. Let's discuss! Anne Mbugua Partner 
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