Infact, the current constitution is so explicit about no abortion. Thats why we must vote yes as women.
Leave the abortion clause for us to debate.
Can a woman saying no on the basis of this clause step forward.
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone from Zain Kenya
From: Stanley Okinda <stanmortons@yahoo.com>
Sender: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 04:39:21 -0700 (PDT)
To: <mlalahoi@googlegroups.com>
ReplyTo: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: ABORTION: ANOTHER REASON WHY I WILL VOTE NO!
Abraham Gumba
Everybody, and somehow suddenly, has become an expert on constitution-making and constitutional interpretation. They don't even know constitutional writing principles & they are the loud mouths in condemning the PCK. No wonder there reasoning has no value & weight.
Gumba u need to understand a very simple fact, Constitution is a framework laying out how things should be done. All other details are part of Legislation.
Leave this to only those who understand it & not just any other roumor mongers of the No camp.
Wake up & see the light, do not be left behind. Leave these primitive & midge reasoning & interpreation of the PCK to engage urself in constructive thinking & forward reasoning.
From: Abraham Gumba <abraham@owentechkenya.com>
To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, July 14, 2010 12:14:14 PM
Subject: Re: ABORTION: ANOTHER REASON WHY I WILL VOTE NO!
Dear Rose,
Since you took the time to reply, let me extend the same courtesy.
You sound quite well-meaning. You seem keen to save both the mother and the baby. That is very good and I agree with you.
Unfortunately, other people have different motives.
If these clauses pass as they are, then a doctor whose INTENTION is to sell abortion services will be allowed to carry out his business.
Such a doctor will NOT ask a lady who wants to abort to see a counsellor instead, because that will be chasing away money.
That is my point.
Abraham
On 12-Jul-2010 18:24, Rose Kagwiria wrote:
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Everybody, and somehow suddenly, has become an expert on constitution-making and constitutional interpretation. They don't even know constitutional writing principles & they are the loud mouths in condemning the PCK. No wonder there reasoning has no value & weight.
Gumba u need to understand a very simple fact, Constitution is a framework laying out how things should be done. All other details are part of Legislation.
Leave this to only those who understand it & not just any other roumor mongers of the No camp.
Wake up & see the light, do not be left behind. Leave these primitive & midge reasoning & interpreation of the PCK to engage urself in constructive thinking & forward reasoning.
From: Abraham Gumba <abraham@owentechkenya.com>
To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, July 14, 2010 12:14:14 PM
Subject: Re: ABORTION: ANOTHER REASON WHY I WILL VOTE NO!
Dear Rose,
Since you took the time to reply, let me extend the same courtesy.
You sound quite well-meaning. You seem keen to save both the mother and the baby. That is very good and I agree with you.
Unfortunately, other people have different motives.
If these clauses pass as they are, then a doctor whose INTENTION is to sell abortion services will be allowed to carry out his business.
Such a doctor will NOT ask a lady who wants to abort to see a counsellor instead, because that will be chasing away money.
That is my point.
Abraham
On 12-Jul-2010 18:24, Rose Kagwiria wrote:
--Gumba
'Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity." This the true definition according to WHO however you have missed the whole point about this close if i understand but i am not a politician and i believe this what will happen in our health facilities if this close is accepted. Understand me i am not a lawyer either. I f all is well as planned, i would expect the government to make our health facilities offer the services as below. In this case we will save a lot of lives for the babies and the women saved. This is my wish and let Kenyans know if this is what will happen if the YES goes thru. If this is not what will happen then you can go for NO. The Kenyans would also want to know IF the NO wins, what they will do to women with the problems i have listed below if they go for backstreet abortion because this is what will happen. Its an direct way of telling a woman you have no write in kenya to be seen by any specialized health professional and you can go rot in back street abortion. NB; if YES or NO i believe a woman has the right to make her decision. I HAVE WRITTEN AN ARTICLE ON UNBORN CHILD? STREET CHILD, ORPHANED CHILD. Please if you come across that article read and critique. So many people don't understand why health professionals in abortion. Read below article if you have time and see how different health professionals are concerned with a woman who wants to abort and how.
Thanks for your comments. i respect your comments, however i think the health professionals can make a better critique on abortion issue than non medical. For your information all the health professionals you have not valued in your discussion are the people who handle the abortion mother more than the once you think. please read the role of each professional in a mother who wants to abort and is allowed officially to be seen by qualified health professional
1. Nurse: Nurses and clinical officers are administrators of health centers. The first person who sees the patient in these health facilities is a nurse. she takes good history of a patient, does observations to ensure the patient's condition is satisfactory. She does the first counseling of this woman
2.Clinical officer: Clinical officer in these health facilities takes the role of the doctor and in absence of the doctor he performs some of medical procedures which otherwise is the doctors role. He takes the history again of the patient and the patient is counseled a second time by this medical profession. If he wants to confirm a second time if the woman is pregnant and the age of the pregnancy, he may order some investigations to confirm. At this point the laboratory(laboratory techs) people and x-ray people(radiographers) will be involved to do specialized investigation. After the results are ready if all is well and the woman still wants to abort, clinical officer or the doctor refers her to counselor
3.Counselor: The counselor is a health professional specially trained to handle all the issues which may be disturbing this woman socially, physically and psychologically. She will do another counseling session and involve the husband, boyfriend, family and the community if need be. In more than 95% of the cases handled by the counselor the solution is found. What are some of the outcome of this aborting woman. please read below and see the list. lets see what other health professionals are involved. Some time the woman may be wanting to abort because
The list is long for why women want to abort. Next to each of above list, there is a qualified health professional who is supposed to handle the matter. I BELIEVE UNLESS A PERSON IS IGNORANT YOU CAN UNDERSTAND MY ARGUMENTS
- She is mentally sick seen by-Psychiatrist
- May be she is HIV positive and thinks the baby will be infected -Counselor
- May be she has some medical condition which if she continues with pregnancy, she will loose her life eg severe heart diseases, and diseases of other vital organs -Doctor
- She is very poor and cannot take care of this child- social worker
- May be she is in school and wants to continue with her education as you noted-Counselor
- May be she was raped and wants to get rid of unwanted pregnancy, because either the parents, husband or the church will disown her if they discover she is pregnant -Counselor
- May be her husband does not want another baby and threatens to leave her Counselor
I hope i have made some issues clear here which have been bothering people. I stand to be challenged
Rose
+254722672157
From: Abraham Gumba <abraham@owentechkenya.com>
To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, July 12, 2010 3:07:45 PM
Subject: Re: ABORTION: ANOTHER REASON WHY I WILL VOTE NO!
Hello,
Below is the issue with abortion.
Article 26 says:
26. (1) Every person has the right to life.
(2) The life of a person begins at conception.
(3) A person shall not be deprived of life intentionally, except to the extent
authorised by this Constitution or other written law.
(4) Abortion is not permitted unless, in the opinion of a trained health
professional, there is need for emergency treatment, or the life or health of
the mother is in danger, or if permitted by any other written law.
Now, the problem is in Clause 4.
The problems are these:
Problem 1) The clause does not define 'trained health professional'
That means a nurse, a clinical officer or even a psychiatrist can be called a trained health professional.
Problem 2) The phrase "There is need for emergency treatment" is not restricted to treatment related to the pregnancy.
So, if a mother needs emergency treatment of her toe, then she can abort, even if the sick toe is not affecting the pregnancy.
Problem 3) The words 'or health' are ambiguous.
The World Health Organisation defines health at this link:
http://www.who.int/about/definition/en/print.html/
and says
"Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity."
So, if a psychiatrist says that a baby will endanger the social well-being of a woman, then the woman can abort.
Or if a nurse says that a pregnant woman will experience anguish because she wanted to get a Masters degree before getting a baby, then their mental well-being is in danger and they can abort.
This is effectively abortion on demand
Problem 4) The clause 'or any other written law' means that 50 members of Parliament can be in the House, pass a new law by simple majority, and abortion will be legal, thus nullifying all the other clauses that attempt to prohibit abortion.
Abraham Gumba
On 09-Jul-2010 19:26, Okiya Omtatah Okoiti wrote:--Ndugu Okinda,
Even if we are to accept that the requirement you state for membership of SOME professional bodies was to apply, then pharmacists would be qualified to perform an abortion.
Nevertheless, the CoE's own narratives on the section say that they intentionally lowered the threshold so that those in areas not covered by doctors can be attended to by people who otherwise would not be qualified to do so.
Otherwise, have a blessed weekend.
Omtatah
From: jt okinda <archjt2004@yahoo.com>
To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com; youngprofessionals_ke@googlegroups.com; kptj-communications@fahamu.org
Sent: Fri, July 9, 2010 7:40:20 AM
Subject: Re: ABORTION: ANOTHER REASON WHY I WILL VOTE NO!
Omtatah,
Like many Kenyans and Catholics in general, I will be hesitant to support a constitution which allows for abortion. The draft is very clear that abortion is not permitted unless sanctioned by a health professional. You must appreciate that not every Jack and Harry gets the title of a professional unless well qualified on the chosen field.It took me five years of university education, two years of post university tutelage and an examination set and marked by highly qualified building professionals to be admitted as a building professional.
Your level of reasoning will make all masons, carpenters, tile layers, painters, brick layers, site clerk of works, site foremen, electricians, plumbers to be titled building professionals. This is simply not true! Under Kenyan laws, to be a professional, you must fulfill the admission requirements of your chosen field before your name is put in the register and you are legally allowed to practice your profession.
The constitution is not an end in itself. Parliament will have to enact very many laws to operational the various constitutional clauses. This is well true of the abortion clause. Not every person working in a medical facility will be allowed to permit an abortion.My view is that this debate should be directed to medical professionals to actualize its operation. I am hard pressed as a building professional to transgress into the medical field and give an informed opinion. It is a case of a fool thinking that he knows!
Omtatah must come out clean and tell us why he is opposed to the draft. Using abortion clause simple cannot sell!
My take is that those opposed to the draft on the pretext of abortion clause are either not intellectually inclined to appreciate the limit the constitutional draftsmen could go in expounding on the draft or are using it as a pretense.White Settlers,Moi, Ruto, Jirongo are more concerned about the land clause and the possibility of establishing National Land Commission to address past irregular land allocations. Those who have joined them in the campaign are on their payroll. How much have you been paid Omtatah?
OKINDA JT
From: Okiya Omtatah Okoiti <omtatah@yahoo.com>
To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com; youngprofessionals_ke@googlegroups.com; ProgressiveMinds <ProgressiveMinds@yahoogroups.com>; New Vision List <newvisionkenya@yahoogroups.com>; NVK-Mageuzi@yahoogroups.com; Wanabidii Googlegroups <wanabidii@googlegroups.com>; Miziziyahaki Pwani <miziziyahakipwani@yahoo.com>; kenya-alternatives@googlegroups.com; africa- oped <africa-oped@yahoogroups.com>; PEOPLE FOR PEACE IN AFRICA <ppa@africaonline.co.ke>; Public Eye Group News <PubliceyeT@aol.com>
Cc: mlalahoi YP <mlalahoi@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, July 9, 2010 2:08:36 PM
Subject: ABORTION: ANOTHER REASON WHY I WILL VOTE NO!
Ndugu Richard Mutwota,
I hope you are keeping well.
I won't thank you for your misinformed email on the issue of abortion in the current laws of Kenya. You are totally wrong to argue that the Proposed Constitution has better provisions for protecting the unborn and the mother than the current one. On the contrary, one of the reasons why I will vote NO is because of the Abortion provision in the Proposed Constitution of Kenya.
There is nothing like CAP 63 Section 240 of the current constitution. You are referring to the Penal Code and not the current Constitution of Kenya. I attach a copy of the Penal Code for your education.
And even then you are totally incapable of deciphering section 240 of the Penal Code. The operative words are "surgical operation". What is a surgical operation? Do you know that a surgical operation cannot be administered by anybody? Do you know that doctors also train to be surgeons - they get two degrees when they graduate (Bachelors degree in Medicine and Bachelors degree in surgery). A surgical operation is performed by one who holds a degree in surgery, not any "trained health professional" (who include hospital cleaners because you don't clean a hospital the way you would your house, hence the special skills required to clean a hospital).
And do the words "in good faith and with reasonable care and skill" communicate nothing to you? The standards are set very high in this clause: upon an unborn child for the preservation of the mother's life, if the performance of the operation is reasonable." That is the precision that is lacking in 26(4).
The words: "if the performance of the operation is reasonable, having regard to the patient's state at the time and to all the circumstances of the case" clearly show that Section 240 of the Penal Code clearly demands that the action of the surgeon must be based on evidence not on an "opinion".
Further, it would help you to understand that Section 240 is an exception clause, to protect Doctors from the punitive abortion laws in the following Sections of the penal code:
158. Any person who, with intent to procure miscarriage of a woman, whether she is or is not with child, unlawfully administers to her or causes her to take any poison or other noxious thing, or uses any force of any kind, or uses any other means whatever, is guilty of a felony and is liable to imprisonment for fourteen years.
159. Any woman who, being with child, with intent to procure her own miscarriage, unlawfully administers to herself any poison or other noxious thing, or uses any force of any kind, or uses any other means whatever, or permits any such thing or means to be administered or used to her, is guilty of a felony and is liable to imprisonment for seven years.
160. Any person who unlawfully supplies to or procures for any person any thing whatever, knowing that it is intended to be unlawfully used to procure the miscarriage of a woman whether she is or is not with child, is guilty of a felony and is liable to imprisonment for three years.
Please note that the words "whether she is or is not with child" in 158 & 160 above show how serious the offence of abortion is. You will even be punished if you administered an abortificient to a woman who is not pregnant! Even to have an intention to perform an abortion is an offence under the existing laws of Kenya. So it is not for nothing that Kenya is said to be among the few countries with the most restrictive abortion laws on the planet.
Current Kenyan laws afford the innocent and defenceless unborn human being maximum protection. You can't begin comparing the outrage in Article 26(4) of the Proposed Constitution the protection both the mother and the unborn Child have in the Penal Code.
Have a blessed weekend.
May God bless us all.
Omtatah
From: mutwota richard <mutwotar@yahoo.com>
To: youngprofessionals_ke@googlegroups.com
Cc: mlalahoi YP <mlalahoi@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, July 8, 2010 10:26:42 PM
Subject: ANOTHER REASON WHY I WILL VOTE YES
Right to life
26. (1) Every person has the right to life.
(2) The life of a person begins at conception.
(3) A person shall not be deprived of life intentionally, except to
the extent authorised by this Constitution or other written law.
(4) Abortion is not permitted unless, in the opinion of a trained
health professional, there is need for emergency treatment, or
the life or health of the mother is in danger, or if permitted by
any other written law.which is better, can i hear comments from YOUNG PROFESSIONALSRichard
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