That is a hard one. We take ethnic groups and we wont have tribalists in the name of ethnicists because that does not sound as bad as tribalists or racists.
On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 11:19 PM, Ayuaya Masira <ayuayah2006@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Kuria-Mwangi <kjmwangi@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: We have no Tribes in Kenya
To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com
Cc: "Kenya Forum" <youngprofessionals_ke@googlegroups.com>
Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 7:55 AM
Paul, Liz na wengine,My anthropology teacher had told us that the term tribe is insulting and mostsane authors use ethnic group instead. It will never be used on other races exceptblacks and so Paul is right on the spot. It is time it got erased from wherever it is planted.Problem is that those it is used against do not protest and continue to use it.As we erase terms such as Bushmen, retardation (I hear the correct term now is intellectual disability) and other nonsense.On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 6:14 AM, liz Konzolo <lizkonzolo@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul,
I totally agree with you. First things first, the name "tribe' would have to go of we were to fight tribalism.I am all for culture (especially being in an industry..that promotes culture) but there there are better terms without making as sound like some cannibal, unruly groups from some unexplored villages.
The term "tribe" is quite demeaning; ' A nation of savages or uncivilized people" or " A social division of usually preliterate people" and yes Paul, why did the so called explorers not use the same for their own in Europe?
Without trying to take anything away for who we are, i personally prefer the term "ethnic group" which means;" a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage, consisting of a common language, a common culture and a tradition of common ancestry.
Liz
On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 10:39 AM, Paul Liyai <pauliyai@yahoo.com> wrote:
Friends,
I was made to feel at home by Mlalahoi who gave me a name of a greeeeeeeen horn, nonetheless, I would like to make a comment on the issue of tribalism and all that pertains the word tribe.First and foremost, I would like all Kenyans and Africans to know that it is high time we dropped the word tribe from our vocabulary.Notwithstanding the fact that we need to be proud of our cultural backgrounds,we can do so without employing the use of the word tribe.
If you look at the oxford dictionary, it is recognized that the word is sometimes offensive. And that this term is only applicable to people from developing countries..the definition therefore ....as a group of people of the same race, and with the same customs, language, relion, etc.,living in a particular area and often led by a chief: the third meaning of the word which should make us kenyans see the need of not using this word again is this; a group of related animals or plants...it should be put in mind that all the above descriptions do not fit into the framework of any Kenyan community. Not all those people groups who live together, in the same location, and speak the same language belong to the same Religion.
In Mumias, Kisumu, Mombasa, and indeed all parts of Kenya have people who speak the same language but do not belong to the same Religion. And the African leaders who led the African communities before the advent of the colonial powers were Kings and not tribal chiefs. The name tribe and chief are colonial and should never be used to describe Kenyan communities. I do not have problem with anyone being proud of being a Kalenjin, a Luo or a Kikuyu in fact we should uphold this diversity as a characteristic of being Kenyan. We are one people irrespective of our different cultures. Instead of using the word tribe, we better use Community, society or Ethnic group.
Another point I would like to raise is that we should never associate particular communities with particular regions in Kenya. The Rift Valley is not for Kalenjins, it is not for Maa speakers, it is not for Turkanas, or Pokots or Samburus etc. It is for Kenyans. It just happens that the majority of these communities live in the Rift Valley. Western Province does not in any way belong to Luhyas or Atesos, or Sabaots, or Luos or Nandis or Teriks, it belongs to Kenyas it just happens that these communities live there in large numbers.
People in the UK speak different languages and live in different locations but they are not called tribes. Those who speak Scottish, Irish, Welish and English do not see themselves as tribes but people. Kenyans when shall we sobber up. For thos of you who want to know morw about the issue of tribe, please get Okot P'Biteks book African Religions in the minds of Western Scholars Mor next time may God bless our land Kenya.
--- On Sun, 8/22/10, Kuria-Mwangi <kjmwangi@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Kuria-Mwangi <kjmwangi@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kenyans abroad are tribal and backward-Let us stop the worship of tribalism!!!!
To: "otieno sungu" <sunoti@yahoo.com>
Cc: kenyaonline@yahoogroups.com, africa-oped@yahoogroups.com, NewVisionKenya@yahoogroups.com, mlalahoi@googlegroups.com, "NVK-M MAGEUZI" <NVK-Mageuzi@yahoogroups.com>, "Orina Nyamwamu" <orinaonka@yahoo.com>, komboelijah@yahoo.com, "YPL" <youngprofessionals_ke@googlegroups.com>, "NYCIV" <nyciv@googlegroups.com>, "KCA" <kca_main@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 7:02 AM
Thanks Migosi Sungu,I was referring to those condemning and attacking those who hold different opinions. One must agree with you and anybody who suggests otherwise. Yes, there are those who will deny one a vote on account of where they come from as you already said and these my friend are the tribalists and enemies of Kenya. I cant disagree with you and I have never seen any of your writings which can be said to be ethnic based. If we all had such mindset, kenya would be marwa (sp). I think the main culprits are politicians because they use tribalism to retain and or gain power. This constitution will address some of these issues but as we also said, the same politicians will talk the same language and the same patterns will be seen. May be time to punish anybody using such platform to gain or retain power (but will it work?).I think many of us probably lost hope or are realistic into the fact that Uhuru will continue to use Kikuyus to spring to power and Raila will continue to use Luos to spring to power. Unfortunately, if Luos rejected Raila, then he may as well as forget ever becoming president and the same for Uhuru and that is why these No. games are reality. Nobody will even want to work with them unless they bring votes to the table and of course these votes are their tribesmen and tribeswomen. That is why if you run for the presidency, you will want to work with UK as opposed to PK if you realize that PK has no following even though I am sure you and me know that PK (Peter Kenneth) would make a better president. So you would be playing the same tribal card inorder to win. Yes, I am with you 100% but on the other had, the reality on the ground is that these tribal cards will be played in 2012 and beyond. You asked why we cant play the game played where we live but they also play racial and regional cards. That is why Obama would find it difficult to win some states in the South but blacks there voted for him. Are they racist? No, they are playing the same games played by those before them and they vote for dems because they believe they will listen to blacks better. What if it was Collin Powell in Republican party Vs John Edwards or Hilary Clinton. Me think blacks would overwhelmingly vote for Collin Powell. If he was white, would they vote for him? I think NO. Racism? Sijui!KuriaOn Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 9:41 AM, otieno sungu <sunoti@yahoo.com> wrote:
Migiosi Askofu Kuria Mwangi,Predictions are just that, predictions, what I find loathesome is when a good number of us constantly remind us how tribal we are and then go ahead and not institute discussions on how we can begin.............., atleast begin combating tribalism. That I find defeatist.For instance, if someone begins saying Peter Kenneth cannot be the next President of Kenya because he is a Kikuyu and we have had 2 Kikuyu Presidents, that is what promotes tribalism. A choice between Ruto,Raila,Uhuru and Kalonzo should not be based on who has the numbers or who can clobber the hightest tribal numbers but who is the fairest of them in terms of strong leadership cridentials. We must begin preaching this.We need to start focusing on leadership, is Peter Kenneth a worthy candidate for instance? If yes, should his tribe be used against him?The next level of debate I find disturbing is also the one about "tribalism is going nowhere soon, it is here with us and we will not wipe it out." I totally agree it is with us, but failing to wipe it I find a very wrong attitude from some of us.Now is that good enough reason to do nothing about it such that if we see Raila or Kibaki making appointments which are motivated by tribe and nothing else, we sit on our haunches and say, "well, that is Kenya and this is how we do things?"I believe we all now about tribalism, so much, we may even become Doctors and Professors on tribal politics. The point us, why keep hyping it instead of discussing how we can work against it?Kuria Mwangi is not just any other person,many people read what he writes, he is not just an Askofu, he is also a man of vast knowledge, he is an opinion leader on these blogs anf fora. If he sounds so defeated about tribalism, the many readers and those who look up to him for great ideas will resign to the fact that we can never defeat tribalism.If Kuria Mwangi too thinks so, then it is the way it is.The same goes for our scholars and great minds here, at some point, we actually contribute to tribalism by entrenching the myth that we can never vote otherwise, we end up influencing many subconsciously.I bet you have heard of motivational speakers(writers), if we had a good number of them, you included, such that in your humour you also chide tribalism, slowly people will begin to look up to the new way of thinking from many of us, that we are done with tribalism and even if it exists, we are not going to be part of it(unless you are telling me scholars like you, Wams, Abonyo etc can also cast a vote based on tribe first before you consider anything else if a voting chance comes your way in diaspora as it may soon??)We have worshipped tribalism and elevated it to a level where it has become a way of life, the solution also lies with us, tribalism did not get where it is by itself, we got it there, we can also bring it down.Otieno Sungu
From: Kuria-Mwangi <kjmwangi@gmail.com>
To: africa-oped@yahoogroups.com
Cc: NewVisionKenya@yahoogroups.com; mlalahoi@googlegroups.com; NVK-M MAGEUZI <NVK-Mageuzi@yahoogroups.com>; Orina Nyamwamu <orinaonka@yahoo.com>; komboelijah@yahoo.com; YPL <youngprofessionals_ke@googlegroups.com>; NYCIV <nyciv@googlegroups.com>; KCA <kca_main@yahoogroups.com>; kenyaonline@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, August 22, 2010 4:14:00 PM
Subject: [KOL] Re: [africa-oped] Kenyans abroad are tribal and backward ( Not All)
Evans,Yoy can repeat that again. I have seen people categorizing some as tribalists just because they gave an opinion different from what they hold. How does predicting the voting pattern in 2012 constitute tribalism for example? Some folks here just want people to follow their opinions and will be branding those opposed to them tribalists even though nobody has evidence to show that their opinions are going to hold water any time in a near future. Let them continue to blow their own vuvuzelas and accuse others of practicing ukabila because they have the freedom to hold their opinion although I doubt that freedom include attacking other people.The question they should ask themselves is whether the journalists giving different opinions and predictions are tribalists. Is Makau Mutua a tribalist because he suggested that Raila and UK may be up to something? What of the opinion polls suggesting different communities form alliances? Are those polled tribalists because they suggested that Raila and UK union would be unbeatable? Those are just opinions and may not even hold water in 2012 and stating here that one candidate will win does not constitute tribalism neither does it mean that the person will win.Lets continue talking and no one should abuse another for holding a different opinion. Some of these attacks are meant to control people from holding different opinion and are hallmark of dictatorship.Kuria
On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 8:57 AM, Evans MACHERA <evansmachera@yahoo.com> wrote:
Tribalism is practiced by those who paly ME/US versus YOU/THEM axis.So whether you reside away or within the country,your attitude to others matters most in view of ethnic enclave.
While talking about tribalism,the same angle exits at the grassroot level in the name of Clanism that has stalled major projects because its not within our clan,the chief and the councillor dissagreed etc.Havent you seen questions about demarcating and naming of a district!
Those who manage their way go 'home' as heroes that i fought for 'you'-for you hear means my people.
Corruption and nepotism being the twin brother of tribalism looks in the angle of what goes home and taken by 'who'.Who hear makes the heroe for his people aginst other homes (clans or communities).
The question is how do we overcome!
A Research by Galup group prior to the 2002 elections indicated kenyans as optimistic people.They went to the polls under the banner of eliminating Corruption,nepotism,tribalism and bid roadside appointments.
Enter Kibaki and NARC,Kenyans were upbeat on the roads and we saw many cases being pointed as police were caught on camera taking 'their dues from matatu crews'.
Most kenyans had voted for kibaki on the strength of TOSHA by Agwambo teaming with others.The trend on corruption stalled somewhere and fingers started pointing at the appointments being made.
And that is where we are.
Therefore to throw a blanked that kenyans abroad are tribal and backward is wrong - some echoe what is being practiced here.
If only we can do a serious campaign with real pointing at the three ills,distribute resources equitably,accounting for every cent and growing of the economy so that even the jobless find it easy,moral responsibility to guide us all and astute leaders to emerge.
Could people like our cousin have made to the oval office!
Let us not deny the existence of tribalism,lets fight to kill it.
Evans MACHERA.
--- On Sun, 8/22/10, otieno sungu <sunoti@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: otieno sungu <sunoti@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [NewVisionKenya] Kenyans abroad are tribal and backward
To: NewVisionKenya@yahoogroups.com, mlalahoi@googlegroups.com, africa-oped@yahoogroups.com, "NVK-M MAGEUZI" <NVK-Mageuzi@yahoogroups.com>, "Orina Nyamwamu" <orinaonka@yahoo.com>, komboelijah@yahoo.com
Cc: "Mlalahoi" <mlalahoi@googlegroups.com>, "newvision" <NewVisionKenya@yahoogroups.com>, "orinaonka" <orinaonka@yahoo.com>, "YPL" <youngprofessionals_ke@googlegroups.com>, "NYCIV" <nyciv@googlegroups.com>
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 12:07 AM
Kombo,I still agree with Cyprian, many of us away from home but come home regularly have a better understanding of Kenyan dynamics than those who went away ages and never set foot back. They are not aware how the dynamics are changing.Nobody claims we do not have tribalism, it is there, the only difference is that it is diminishing and not as pronounced as it was some years back, like during Nyayos time. And the good thing is that most Kenyan are now more open minded and likely to be influenced by good leadership over tribe. For instance, the InfoTrack Harris results on Presidential candidates polularity just released, though indicating a tribal trend tends to also give candidates a better chance according to performance and leadership ability rather than tribe alone, such that even in the Rift Valley, Raila still has a sizeable %age who think he is best placed to be Kenyas next president, not a wide margin from Ruto even if Ruto stood.Again, comparatively, Kalonzo's star is diminishing in view of his flaundering leadership qualities, especially after he dithered during this referendum debate. These national projections from different regions are not just based on tribe, it is not that over 46% of Kenyans woukd vote Raila because he is a Luo and 7 % would vote Kalonzo because he is a Kamba, but people are beginning to put premium to leadership qualities.This is what I have been saying all along, that issues are fast replacing tribe and in the next few years,it will be issue based elections rather than tribe.What we need to do is not allow ourselves to become defeatists and succumb to tribalism, with the fighting spirit in people like you, we need to begin demystifying tribalism.It is those of us, especially the elite who also happen to be opinion leaders who fuel these tribal sentiments when we hype them instead of demystifying them.We will definitely talk more on this during our meeting on 4th September and I hope to see you on Wednesday when I come home to keep abreast with what happens in my country and proceed to my village too to see my folks and a hearty chat with Omondi, my primary schoolmate and friend in the village.You need to know Kenya to speak about it with authority.Otieno Sungu
From: Elijah Kombo <komboelijah@yahoo.com>
To: NewVisionKenya@yahoogroups.com; mlalahoi@googlegroups.com; africa-oped@yahoogroups.com; NVK-M MAGEUZI <NVK-Mageuzi@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: Mlalahoi <mlalahoi@googlegroups.com>; newvision <NewVisionKenya@yahoogroups.com>; orinaonka <orinaonka@yahoo.com>; YPL <youngprofessionals_ke@googlegroups.com>; NYCIV <nyciv@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, August 22, 2010 9:26:14 AM
Subject: Re: [NewVisionKenya] Kenyans abroad are tribal and backward
Hahaahahah You bet. Tribalism will stay with us atleast for sometime. If you want i will give you example how it being proctised even on our small blogs. Lets not cheat one another. Even in the diaspora they teach and advocate for Kikuyu etc and say they are promoting culture. Therefore tribal linkages will be there. And i think i agree 50/50 with Abonyo's piece of article. The fact is that we are not ready to face reality.Okay - if you want then Kenya not to be tribal, probably start by changing your names from OTIENO Sungu to Cyprian Nyamwamu........Lets see how the counties will work - if not even further to the clans......wacha story. Ukabila utaendelea namna hiyo.....the big five! Now you need to give us a formula to destroy Ukabila!Now come 2012, i support those major tribes to support minority and a minority takeover is necessary but it wont come that easy...RegardsKombo Elijah
From: orina Nyamwamu <orinaonka@yahoo.com>
To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com; africa-oped@yahoogroups.com; NVK-M MAGEUZI <NVK-Mageuzi@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: Mlalahoi <mlalahoi@googlegroups.com>; newvision <NewVisionKenya@yahoogroups.com>; orinaonka <orinaonka@yahoo.com>; YPL <youngprofessionals_ke@googlegroups.com>; NYCIV <nyciv@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, August 21, 2010 8:36:28 PM
Subject: [NewVisionKenya] Kenyans abroad are tribal and backward
I do not believe all of them are tribal and backward but most are. The good once Like Matunda Nyanchama, Ochuodho, Otieno Sungu etc stand out so clearly. And one unique thing about them is that they come home regularly. They are more at their villages than those loud mouths in Nairobi who last went to their villages in 2007.
But seriously majority of Kenyan abroad need to swear the citizenship oath of allegiance to Kenya. They are so poisonous and divisive.
My Prof. Njeru used to say that "You can get a man out of the (m)bush but you can not get the (m)bush out of him.
--- On Thu, 8/19/10, otieno sungu <sunoti@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: otieno sungu <sunoti@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [NewVisionKenya] RE: [africa-oped] UHURU, RAILA, RUTO
To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com, africa-oped@yahoogroups.com, "NVK-M MAGEUZI" <NVK-Mageuzi@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "Mlalahoi" <mlalahoi@googlegroups.com>, "newvision" <NewVisionKenya@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, August 19, 2010, 8:49 AM
So Wams,What are we doing about it now that we know we "practice it like mad?" This is where I have beef with people like you, Daktari Abonyo etc, you want to highlight how we practice ukabila and then offer no way in how to combat it.Does not auger well for minds(especially in diaspora to cry out loud and offer no thoughts/solutions) yet we think you are exposed to offer insights into how better other people do things elsewhere.Kwani your being in democracies like the USA is just in vain? Just to cry out loud and not share with us experiences that can build us?hata nyinyi yawa!!!!Otieno Sungu
From: Margaret Gichuki <wams2006@gmail.com>
To: africa-oped@yahoogroups.com; NVK-M MAGEUZI <NVK-Mageuzi@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: Mlalahoi <mlalahoi@googlegroups.com>; newvision <NewVisionKenya@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, August 19, 2010 1:36:38 AM
Subject: Re: [NewVisionKenya] RE: [africa-oped] UHURU, RAILA, RUTO
Uncle nice,It's not shameful.Thats a fact and we all prcatice it like MAD.I mean all of us.Ukabila in Kenya is not going anywhere anytime soon.And NOT just in politics though its more telling. Look at the Katiba pattern of voting.95-100% TURN in some regions '' like mine, yours and Sangs'' becouse our leaders led the campaings.Next ..................Employment, Marriages na sijui NINI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.............read Migosi Listers posting again and lets talk sametime next yr.If you ''the Oba of Kanyada'' taganzad'' your interest in the presidency, you would get 5 votes nation wide.I'd get 2 from my parents.Go figure!How are you doing?On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 2:06 PM, asego2002 <asego2002@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:--
It is very shameful that in 2010, the only thing that can make someone a potential presidential candidate in Kenya are the numbers he can start with from his tribe.
Nobody talks about what makes Uhuru a good president other than the fact that he will get his tribe behind him...ditto Ruto and others. Its a shame.
The Oba of Homa Bay
--- In africa-oped@yahoogroups.com, nyabuto mangerere <Mangerere1@...> wrote:
>
> Abonyo,
>     your analysis may be fine, but I wonder if many of us have the willingness to treat the cancer because of the 50 year mistrust that seems to be deeprooted. It is really a cancerous disease that urgently requires both a psychological and a pharmacological combination and on a long term treatment. I can only speculate how long, but I strongly believe it is gonna be more than 10-15 years in Africa. However, in Middle East it may never happen and just for the purpose of comparison. A new blood is therefore necessary which you may not agree, but the candidates you mentioned are far from that recipe and not even a closer comparison to Obama's qualification which I hope to see in Africa.
> Baadaye.
> Â
> unedited
> Nyabuto
> Â
>
> --- On Wed, 8/18/10, barack abonyo <luo31@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: barack abonyo <luo31@...>> Cc: dickens.odhiambo@..., nvk-mageuzi@yahoogroups.com, "jaluo jaluo" <jaluo@...>
> Subject: RE: [NewVisionKenya] RE: [africa-oped] UHURU, RAILA, RUTO
> To: "newvision" <newvisionkenya@yahoogroups.com>, "africa-oped@yahoogroups.com" <africa-oped@yahoogroups.com>, "youngprofessionals" <youngprofessionals_ke@googlegroups.com>
> Â
> Date: Wednesday, August 18, 2010, 12:30 PM
>
>
>
>
>
> Sungu
> You are confusing doing tribal arithmatic or promoting tribal sentiments with doing objective analysis. My was an analysis. It is upto to people reading my analysis to say that tribalsim must die. My point right now is that tribalism does exist, so what are you as an individual going to do about it.
>
> Â
> Â
> Â> Â Â Â Â 850-339-4806
> Dr. Barack Otieno Abonyo
> Associate Professor of Pharmacology
> College of Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical Sciences
> Florida A and M University
> 1415 Martin Luther King Dr.
> Tallahassee Fl, 32304
> Tel:850-561-2553
>
>
>
> Â
>
>
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