Tuesday, August 10, 2010

Re: [KOL] Moi has still to restore his lost respect.

Killion Ngot Nono, you wouldn't be where you are if Moi had not preserved peace and ensured that you attained quality education. That is why you are in Chad, or are you in political exile brother after the PEV of 2007? you may be mistaking the PEV to have been engineered by Moi? No brother, it was Kibaki and Raila that caused us that kind of suffering.....your prayers are like my prayers.....i hope Ocampo goes with these two to Hague very soon.

On 8/9/10, killion ooko nyamwanga <killionooko@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
This Ngonyo Ngonyi is not there to lecture me who worked under the tyrany of Moi. By then he was still taking Mursik. When I talk of tyrany, my conscious is very clear of what I am saying so I don't need any fool to come and lecture me on Moi's rule which frustrated our education. I would not be where I am now if I was to continue to serve that regime. Ngonyo ngonyi give us a break please with Moi's praises
 
Jakasrime Kosoko
N'djamena
Chad

From: KENNEDY KORIR <korirken63@yahoo.com>
To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, 9 August, 2010 16:18:54

Subject: Re: [KOL] Moi has still to restore his lost respect.

Jagem tell him again, this Chemurwok needs to be told again and again. He needs to understand that Kenya moved on despite Moi's autocracy and that Kenyan people are strong


--- On Mon, 8/9/10, Jagem K'Onyiego <jairuschurch@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Jagem K'Onyiego <jairuschurch@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [KOL] Moi has still to restore his lost respect.
To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com
Date: Monday, August 9, 2010, 6:28 AM

1.Moi Introduced unhealthy policies that killed Agriculture in particulaar dairy farming.
2. Moi came up with a Caucescu (Late Romanian Leader) type of Leadership where alternative Voices were muzzled by his controlled secret Police. He preached Democracy while practised a very bad form of tyrany.
 
Do you want me to go on Chemurwok? I think you need to come to reality to open your mind and see the recent developments taking place in the country politically. You need to come out of that zone where you are stuck to join other Kenyans into improving Governance.
 
Sitting there and continuously singing about the "Good Moi" will make no difference. The truth is Raila Odinga (Agwambo Chuny Piny), dismantled the Tyranny of a party called Kanu and its mismanaging Policies introduced, entrenched and perfected by one Moi. Kenya right now is moving forward, and if you doubt it, your children or your grandchildren will read it in history books and know who brought these changes. As for you you are at liberty to keep thinking that Moi was the best leader.
 
Jagem

From: sagongonyi chemurwok <chemurwok@gmail.com>
To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, August 9, 2010 1:25:09 AM
Subject: Re: [KOL] Moi has still to restore his lost respect.

@ JT, Thank you for calling me a fool. It doesn't hurt me really.... i regard you as a small child who may not be able to speak for himself.

@ Jagem, your contribution can best be regarded as a critique on these ideologies. You are free to write a book on your thoughts. I am happy that you did some googling as i advised you earlier. Even the most ignorant can understand the difference in what these varying ideologies can deliver to a people. Why are we identifying ourselves with the Western democracies if there is no difference between the two? The issue was, the Odinga family were leaning towards the East.... he was fighting Moi not for democracy but with an attempt to introduce Ujamaa as happened in Tanzania. I am never a slave of Moi but i will not be blinded by people who would want to distort history by claiming Moi misruled this country for 24 yrs. If you are honest, tell me one single thing you think Moi did in his 24 yrs.

@ Maurice, you are a Raila psycophant and it amazes me that you even call yourslef a professional. We know what you intend to say before you start punching your keyboard. Try growing up and seeing things in a broader perspective.

@ Kennedy, it is good to have you back. You have questioned why Moi constructed a road to Sacho....? you wanted him, as a president of this country to go on foot to his village? who else was going to do this road if a whole president of the republic was not goig to do it? this is what you call bad dvt records? the issue was not comparing Kibaki and Moi's perfomance, read the thread carefully. It was about silencing Moi not to give an opinion on the just concluded referendum coz of some people think he was a bad president. They are just trying to twist the discussion.

@ Kilion, for your info, i was a green and you can extract my past contributions on the same. That is why i am not a bitter man like you who is bitter with Moi. I do not have a problem with Moi exercising his right as a citizen and i am not obliged to do what he says. I a an adult who is able to differentiate wrong from right and that is why i voted for the constitution to change the course this country is taking. I also have a right to defend Moi and others to express themselves as long as they are peaceful. I will also defend his legacy where i know he did right and criticize him on areas that he may have gone wrong. I am an individual who is guided by vendetta like some of you in this forum. It is unfortunate that you will have to live with my opinion as long as i am allowed to contribute in this forum. For Ouko and Muge, I have advised you to go to the nearest police station if you have evidence that Moi killed the two.






On 8/7/10, jt okinda <archjt2004@yahoo.com> wrote:
Chemurwok and others,

It is below me to continue contributing to this debate fronted by Chemurwok with Moi as a subject. It is case of arguing with a fool and leaving bystanders perplexed as to who is the fool!

From: maurice oduor <mauricejoduor@yahoo.ca>
To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, August 6, 2010 5:33:46 PM

Subject: Re: [KOL] Moi has still to restore his lost respect.

Killion,
 
I agree with what you've told this Ngonyi character.
 
 It's very frustrating arguing with someone who's in such denial. He must be one of the few people in Kenya that benefitted from Moi rule and would jump over the cliff if Moi says so. Imagine someone actually applauding Mois 24 yrs of misrule!!!  Amazing !! 
 
There are some things that happen in this world that we can not reconcile; one of them is Ngonyi's ardent support for Moi.
 
Shame on him.
 
Courage,
Maurice


From: killion ooko nyamwanga <killionooko@yahoo.co.uk>
To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, August 6, 2010 4:21:49 AM
Subject: Re: [KOL] Moi has still to restore his lost respect.

Dear So called Sagongonyi
 
With all those books, authors, name them, you are a supporter of who you believe was/is the best prophet for Kenyans.
I just pity your knowledge in memory and I want you ngonyi to tell Kenyans in brief, and if I tell you what a dictator is and your smear campaign of trying to vilify others. I know for sure you are bitter because the constitution has been approved by Kenyans.
 
Can you tell us in capital or bolded what happened to only the two not many as the list is long and painful
1.Our late brother Bishop Muge, circumstances that led to his death
2. The late Dr. Robert Ouko
There are serious accounts of what your prophet did to Kenyans and dont let us reflex back. We are moving forward, we dont want stagnated mentality like those of yours.
 
 
Jakasrime Kosoko
N'Djamena
Chad

From: sagongonyi chemurwok <chemurwok@gmail.com>
To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, 6 August, 2010 6:48:15
Subject: Re: [KOL] Moi has still to restore his lost respect.

@ MauricejOduor, Since you have accepted that Raila and Ochuka supported the 82 coup, then you need to understand why Moi had to detain these criminals and you need not symphatize with them. They deserved to be punished for their crimes. I agree with you to that extend... that you commit some sins and you pay for those sins.

@ Maurice Oduor, yes i am supporting Moi with a straight face because of what I know. Look at your reasoning, you mean those teachers whom you lost did not deserve to be promoted? or is it because they were kalenjins? i thought you should have been happy for their achievements. Iten was known for excellent academic performance and i am sure your teachers were some of the best. It is coz of your worship of Raila that you think other people are idiots. Even a fool knows that Moi's leadership was not bad throughout the 24 years. It is the brainwashed "professionals" like you who make us wonder at your kind of subjective reasoning. You put to shame those who passed through Iten if your reasoning is as low as this. I just pity you and your lot. You need to redeem your soul from worshipping Agwambo.

@ Jagem, you want me to give you definitions of those three terminologies? i thought you went to school.... i do not know what level of education you managed to attain but this are basic terms in a history or economics class. Try googling for these terminologies and come back and tell us what you managed to find. Find out what gvts practised these ideaologies and do a comparison with other forms of gvts. Try and look for where capitalism and democracy originated from and where socialism, communism and dictatorship came from. Tell us what Fidel Castro, Karl Max, Mao, Hugo Chavez, etc did or are doing to their countries. Tell us why Raila named his son Fidel..... it is not just a name. He idolizes a man who has destroyed his country. Ideally, he is a man who believes in gvt owning all the resources for the people. Whatever you have, he thinks you do not own it genuinely. He will repossess or nationalize it if given a chance to run this country. I believe he is still believes in those idealogies and he will implement those beliefs if he ascends to power.

On 8/4/10, maurice oduor <mauricejoduor@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Sagongonyi,
 
Are you a lawyer or a politician by any chance? Your reasoning is very warped and laughable to be honest. You are actually standing (or sitting) there and defending Moi with a straight face? Amazing.
 
All I can say is that you are probably one of those that benefitted during Moi. I remember a Mr. kimunai who was the Headmaster at Kapsabet Boys became Ambassodor to India within 3 months of Moi coimng to power. We also lost 2 teachers at our school in St Patrick's Iten. One was a Biology teacher Forms 5 and 6 and was made Director of education immediately. Another was a Bio teacher Forms 1 to 4 and was made Provincial Inspector of Schools immediately too.
 
You must be one of those that enjoyed Moi's rule. You speak like an idiot.
 
Courage,
Maurice


From: sagongonyi chemurwok <chemurwok@gmail.com>
To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, August 3, 2010 7:47:38 AM

Subject: Re: [KOL] Moi has still to restore his lost respect.

@JT, I have no hatred to luos but to luo pretenders who try to portray that Raila has more right to be heard than another citizen called Moi. I deplore people who are not objective and who are willing to say that Moi in his 24 yrs had nothing good for this country when the opposite is true. Why do you want to deny this man his right of expression and allow prisoners and Ranneberger to talk about this draft? if you have information that Moi killed Ouko, you are free to go to the nearest police station and give your evidence.

@ Omondi, in his last Jamhuri speech in 2002, Moi asked whoever he may have wronged for forgiveness. He also forgave those who wanted him dead like Raila. What more forgivenes should he ask for? Moi contributed to the advancement of democracy by conceading to the repeal of section 2A. He further helped this country by agreeing to hand over power peacefully to a hostile crowd. He had all the powers and machinery to refuse and you were going to do nothing. Look at what happened in Zimbabwe and Uganda. He never attempted to change the constitution to prolong his stay like some other despots in this continent. When giving examples of what happened to Chiluba, remember to turn the coin and imagine what could have happened if he had chosen the other side. I know for you people, you only see tribalism when Raila is attacked.

@ Andrew, read you history well, unless you are reading some revised versions. For how long was Jaramogi Kenyatta's buddy? you do not even remember the massacre in Kisumu when Jaramogi told your folks to stone the presidential motorcade? If Moi signed the orders, why did he release them on coming to power? you cannot be able to decipher that this is a man who was taking orders from above? I agree that history is good and cannot be altered.... but some people can misinterprete it.





On 8/3/10, andrew teyie <amuholo@hotmail.com> wrote:

Chemurwok,
Point of information. Jaramogi was never detained. His son Raila was. Jaramogi was  a buddy of Jomo Kenyatta. Despite his disagreements with Jomo Kenyatta, read the russia hospital and KPU fiasco,  he was just isolated. Moi put him under house arrest in Bondo.  Jomo detained Ngugi wa thiongo, Shikuku, etc. Moi was then minister for home affairs.As minister he signed the detention orders. History is good because we cant alter it. 
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 05:24:07 -0700
From: sunoti@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [KOL] Moi has still to restore his lost respect.
To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com


Sago,
 
After releasing these people, he promply started with his own group of detainees, Raila, Koigi, Anyona, etc. Then he replaced the Kiambu Mafia with his own, people with hardly any knowledge and proper schooling for certain jobs, like Bargentuny suddenly becoming Parastatal heads and Bank CEOs, what was the benefit?
 
Otieno Sungu

From: sagongonyi chemurwok <chemurwok@gmail.com>
To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, August 2, 2010 8:49:10 AM
Subject: Re: [KOL] Moi has still to restore his lost respect.

JT, Moi was 4 years into power. What possibly could he have done in those 4 years to stiffle democracy? He released Jaramogi,  Seroney and Shikuku from detention immediately on coming to power. His installation marked a new departure from the patronage of Kiambu Mafia. 80% of the civil servants and heads of parastatals were from central kenya courtesy of Kenyatta gvt at the time. He had not even started consolidating his power then guys start planning for a coup with Raila and his father being key suspects of course with Raila admitting to having played a role in his book.You cannot rewrite history on a social blog as some of you are trying to do. You cannot continue spreading propaganda that Moi ruined this country in his 24 years rule. The man could not have been that bad from day one all through. That is why i view your opinion and the likes of Maurice as mere propaganda lacking in objectivity. Yours is an attempt to portray Raila as a saint by besmirching other people.


On 7/30/10, jt okinda <archjt2004@yahoo.com> wrote:
Chemurwok,

You must have been one of those who had easy during the Moi regime to be posting opinions as we have been subjected to on this forum. The reason some kenyans moved against the Moi regime was the entrenchment of dictatorship in our country. All avenues for peaceful opposition to the regime was closed. What else do your type had expected kenyans with opposing views do except to try in their limited ways to get Moi and his group removed from power?
If we are to be honest to ourselves the country was brought to its knees by the 24 years of Moi dictatorship. All elections were stage managed to get Moi to state house. Have you forgotten the likes of Kariuki Chotara who took as divine duty to propose Moi on non existent elections and rain on opposing positions.
This country is going to move forward with or without your type. When some people took it upon themselves to entrench terror on their fellow kenyans under the pretext of a stolen election, do you people believe kenyans did not know you had hidden agenda with or without stolen elections!

Ocampo is doing his work and we expect result before october!

OKINDA JT

From: sagongonyi chemurwok <chemurwok@gmail.com>
To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 4:29:52 PM

Subject: Re: [KOL] Moi has still to restore his lost respect.

Otieno, you want to tell this forum that nobody was killed in Kisumu or Kibera in 2008? remember we come from the same country and i witnessed the PEV just as you did. There is a misguided trend that killings only happened in RV. Visit Kisumu police station and do a small enquiry on the number of deaths.... do the same on Kibera and Dandora.

Those who want to silence Moi coz of his past record should just forget it. Raila participated in the 1982 coup and he has admitted it himself in his book. He called people for mass action (coded message for people to fight) in 2008. He has never condmned the killings to date. he even visited Jackson Kibor in jail.  That is why it will be a tall order trying to exonerate him......however much you may love the guy.

On 7/29/10, otieno sungu <sunoti@yahoo.com> wrote:
Sago,
 
Who are those who were killing other during PEV? If Raila "told his followers so, how come only "followers" in RV and particular people heeded his call when he "told his supporters in nation to" massacre?"
 
Don't you find it strange that these people never stopped to think, thye just attacked? Reason bro, reason.
 
Sungu

From: sagongonyi chemurwok <chemurwok@gmail.com>
To: mlalahoi@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, July 29, 2010 11:28:49 AM

Subject: Re: [KOL] Moi has still to restore his lost respect.

Maurice, which Kenyans are forgiving? Moi never asked for any forgiveness and i do not understand why you are "forgiving" him. Did you also forgive Raila for the 1982 coup? how many massacres did he preside over? how about the 2007 PEV? have you forgiven him also? Don't try silencing Moi from exercising his democratic right by bringing in unrelated matters. Everybody has a dark past and your man is part of that dark history.

On 7/29/10, mauricejoduor@yahoo.ca <mauricejoduor@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Lee,

Here here. Moi has no moral authority at all to lecture anyone on any aspect of the constitution. He had 24 yrs and either failed or refused to bring about such a set of rules. Shame on him. He's lucky Kenyans are such a forgiving people otherwise they would have lynched him or thrown him inside Kamiti to face those that he harmed through detentions, torture, exile etc.

Courage,
Maurice
Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network
From: Lee Makwiny <amosogal@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 09:19:43 +0300
Subject: Re: [KOL] Moi has still to restore his lost respect.

Obed,

I will someone will pass this to Moi and his YK92 band of gangs!

Fact: Moi does not have any moral authority to talk about abortion while he 'killed' so many generation by torturing and rendering reformers 'vegetable' hence can not give birth!



On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 8:58 AM, obed nyaribo <obed2003@yahoo.com> wrote:
 


It is embarrassing for a retired president to be used as a campaign boy by a band of anti-reformists to run from village to village  saying that  the draft constitution is bad and should be rejected. What is amazing is that Mr Moi does not offer any resolution after the rejection of the draft. The old man wants things to remain the same, which is really dangerous for a progressive country like Kenya. Below are the few facts Moi should be reminded any time he opens his mouth.

1. Fact. During his reign he forced all civil servants in Kenya KANU members, money for for Kanu memberships was deducted automatically through the payroll system. I was a member not by choice.

2. Fact. It is during Moi's rule that  a gangster group call Kanu92 was formed that terrorized innocent Kenyans to guarantee his continued rule. The same gangsters are now in the front trying to oppose the draft constitution.

3.Fact. It is during Moi's time that, even his staunch KANU supporters were murdered e.g Ouko and oyugi etc.

4. Fact. It during his time that Goldenberg was created  that nearly brought down the Kenyan economy.

5. Fact. It during his time for the first time that clergmen were beaten and some killed like Alexander Muge in addition, women were stripped naked. Shame.

6. Fact. It is during his time that Nyayo torture chamabers were officially open for business and many patriotic Kenyans were rendered "vegetables"by nyayo boys and girls  for advocating openness and free speech.

7. Fact.it during his time that, market plots, cemetery, city and town toilets, and land allover Kenya were grabbed by the KANU boys.

For Mr Moi to restore his dented credibility he should cease to be used to do dirty work for others who do not want to see Kenya move forward. He should emulate his next neighbor President mkapa of TZ who has become an elder statesman of the region. It is shameful for a grand and great grand father to be used reckless by his handlers. It also shameful for him to say that this time there is democracy and he has a right to talk like anybody else. He is no like anybody else he is a retired president of Kenya with full government security paid by the tax payers. Further, during his time he denied people to express themselves what he is taking for granted now. He is a lucky man to be living in a free speech Kenya.

He has five days to redeems his lost glory by joining the winning team, even God will forgive him of his past crimes against the people of Kenya. I wish him a quick change of heart for the sake of his grand children.

Obed.

Green is the way, any other way is unsustainable



  


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